Before the cross of Christ, everyone was declared to be a sinner. No one could claim righteousness. The good news of this new covenant is that believers are no longer called sinners but saints. You have a new identity and a new nature in Him. The old nature passed away. We still have the flesh to deal with but God has done everything through Christ to bring us complete forgiveness and allowed us to be partakers of the divine nature.
Saints or Sinners? (14 Min, 9.6 MB)
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Thanks guys for this amazing message, I have been contemplating on this concept for awhile now. I want to thank you for sharing this it so good that I can't help but share it.
ReplyDeleteI do have a question though:
Okay I know the Bible says in the epistles that in Adam, all were made sinners but in the second Adam(Jesus) all were made righteous.
Does this mean that unbelievers are saints just without knowing? Is it a experimental thing?
If All were in Adam, would'nt that apply that ALL are in Christ whether they believe it or not?
What God has done, He has done for Humanity, so is there really a difference with sinners and saints? If it is not about what you do,is it by what you believe?
Please clear that up for me.
Thanks for all the messages, I love growing more in Grace.
Mike
That's a great question, Mike. There has been a lot of debate in recent times about all of this, and it's great to discuss. My own personal opinion is that, just as we often say on this program, we can't take one verse and build a doctrine out of it, or several lone verses and build a doctrine out of it, especially when there are many other verses and passages that seem to make the opposite case. That's what I see with this particular point of view.
ReplyDeleteI see Paul saying that there are people who are "in Christ" and that there are others who are not in Christ. I see Paul addressing the people of the church as "saints," while saying that others are "of the world" or "outside" and other such statements about non-believers.
Again, as I look at all of the New Testament writings, I personally see a clear distinction being made between those who are in Christ and those who are not. The objective of evangelism is to tell people the good news of the finished work of Christ so that they can believe and be justified (made righteous) and claim their right to become a child of God (John 1:12).
Oksy I sorta understanding what you are seeing. I believe that it a experimental thing.
DeleteIt is like God invited humanity to a dance but not everyone dances(fellowship) but he still calls them. He has called everyone.
But they will not get to benefit for it because they do not believe.
Even in Timothy, it says that he is the Savior of all men, especially to them that believe.
I know what God has done, He has done for humanity.
The church are messengers of the gospel, to save the lost. But it does not change the fact that what God has done, He did not did it just for the Jews but everyone has came near by the blood of Christ.
Does this make sense or am I missing something?
Okay thanks for your explanation, I have to study it more to get a better understanding.
ReplyDeleteHowever I appreciate your answer and thankful for this podcast, it is helping me more and more.
Thanks again.
Mike
And the beauty of all this is that whether you study and come to the same conclusion or a different conclusion, it's ok. :) I don't know anybody who's got this stuff down pat, and I know all too well how ten different people can look at the same passage(s) and come up with ten different views. In this case, I'm comfortable simply saying it's my "personal opinion after having studied it for a while" rather than making sure everybody agrees with me. :)
ReplyDeleteJoel and a Halaluah to you for walking by grace
ReplyDeleteI see only one passage that helps me to see the truth in this matter for me that has set me free from this world and its traps
Romans 5:10
10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
I see that yes God died for the sin of the whole world and all are forgiven just not allhave received this. And then when one does receive this that god took away all sin from God's vantage point, that this is great news. Unforunately this is where it stopped for a while on me. Not realizing the last part of that verse
shall we be saved through his life!
It is only by receiving the life that one is saved not by the death yet the death is needed first and foremost before one can receive the life
Just what i see as God has revealed this to me
Thanks for your sight Joel and Kap
Howard
Yes indeed Howard, the NT scriptures do indeed talk about us needing to "receive" Christ and what He has done for us. One of the points made in the Facebook article that I posted, if I may expand on it slightly, is, if everybody has the Spirit and/or has been made alive with Christ Jesus, then what happens to them in eternity after they've rejected Christ (not received Him)? Either everybody is saved for all time and eternity (which is universalism), or somehow they have been made alive with Christ but will be separated from Him forever. I personally see the scriptures as saying that not all have been made alive with Christ, and not all will be.
ReplyDeleteI was always taught a 'Potential Gospel' which meant that you are only forgiven,reconciled,justified, etc if you believe you are. But the bible says the opposite.
ReplyDeleteTherefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.{Romans 5:18}
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.{2 Corinthians 5:19}
If in Adam all were made sinners, and Christ is the second Adam, would'nt that mean that all are made righteous?
Is it up to a person to 'make' something true by receiving. We did not receive Christ to MAKE somthing, we were just responding to what was ALREADY TRUE from Eterity.
Now there are a few passages that suggests to not walk according to the world, or in darkness, tc. I understand that- those are terms for unbelievers.
But unbelievers are only dead to the reality that they have been made alive to Christ.
It is like they can walk in a room full of light but because they are blind, they cannot see anything.
However I am saying that just because you do not believe in the finihsed work of Christ, that does not make it less void.
I hope that it makes sense to you, I don't cliam to know all the answers but I am studying more and more.
I know that you are as well and I appreciate this podcast:)
Mike
Both death and life are needed. can't have one without the other it is right here in Romans
ReplyDeleteRomans 6
New International Version (NIV)
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is stated very well by paul, and in 6:11 we are to reckon ourselves dead to our own flesh and blood, born again, thia ia where life is at
Yes the whole world has been forgiven, believer or no believer. John the Babtist said this in John 1:29, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Question in who's sight? His Fathers' sight why? So Father who knows no sin and can't view sin, jesus took that out of the way so Father could live in you the believer through the Holy Ghost, life was not received as eternal until one receives the Holy Ghost, you can blasphme Jesus the Father and it is forgiven but not the Holy Ghost will never be frogiven. Today it is the job of the Holy Ghost to bring in the sheep and if all were already saved then we would have a new earth and new heaven. The whole wrold has been forgiven, but no one is saved until they receive the Holy Ghost and this reception comes from God, you asking and believing, thus receiving first and past tense you are forgiven then you pass from death to life as Paul so well put in Romans 6
Love you all die to your flesh and believe that God is the only one that can do this through the Holy Ghost with fire. The fire is there for you to ask to burn out your worldy manner of emotions that so easily beset each and every believer
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Just what I see.
If you had a sibling that died here and you were close, not wanting this death, and God showed up and gave you permission to raise this sibling back to life, would you raise this sibling back to life?
ReplyDeleteOf coarse and so would I, but the problem remains that the sibling would have to die all over again, seeing the disease that caused the death has not yet been dealt with. So in order to live forever in the new life, the disease that caused death would have to be dealt with, once and for all. this is ones flesh that we all are originally born with. We die to ourself, our flesh and blood with Christ at the crucifixion where he took sin away in his Father's sight so then Father could ressurect you as he did his Son Jesus christ
Too many a christian is running around sincerely trying to stop sin in themselves, never attaining, never giving up trying to do what no one can do or ever will be able to do, Christ is the only one that ever did and ever could for he was born of a virgin. Now you being born again of the spirit of god are one in him and when you finally learn to walk by the spirit of truth and that only, you do not sin and won't until you disbelieve you are dead in and to the flesh
1John 3
1 John 3
New International Version (NIV)
3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
pointing out 1 John 3:3 we are already made pure in bleif of the ressurection where life eternal is.
I discovered this years ago and went back and forth with the flesh alive and then dead, so all i can say is just hang in there and excercise truth.
ReplyDeleteThe truth that sets one free from this present and dark world of evil existence all around us
Another way to see this. Do you belief that truth sets you free? I klnow you do so therefore error would put one in bondage right? So if anyone is in bondage, then there would have to be error in that ones truth. truth is become dead to ones and anyones flesh and blood, to be set free. for his kingdom is not of this earth if it was he would have fought back with the angels and never went to the cross. He said to Peter put down your sword and restored the man's ear that Peter cut off. Peter was still of the flesh not understanding as of yet and many a christian are doing the same, fighting flesh with flesh. When born again of the Spirit of truth, one sees this clearly as they continue to search, never giving up the transition that has already occured from the first day of belief in the twinkling of an eye. are fight is no longer carnal, it is Spiritual, and Christ won and God the Father comes to live in you via the Holy Ghost anbd teach you truth that sets you free from sin period
working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is god that works it out for you according to his good will, he made you Holy and as long as you give up tryiong to stop sin, then he is able to stop it in your stead.
Now as you grow though you will get a messenger of Satan to buffet you as Paul had gotten, every time you think you got it all together, one gets reminded of their need for God to not only live in them but more importantly through them 2Corinthians 12:7 and on. So will you also glory in your iniquities?
Love you in Christ
Joel, well put, Iam hoping like you that we all put down our flesh swords and not cut off ears as Peter did when they came to take Jesus away. to tis purpose Jesus came to redeem man-kind, and this was done through the cross and as you said not all are saved, only those that put their trust(faith) in God through Christ's finished work is the begining of life everlasting and as one continues to search and seek they find truth, and see it is life that is needed, for the devil (Today emotions) since the prince of this world has been judged and wiped out by the ressurection of Christ where he took the keys to heaven and hell from the devil. So john 10:10 reads to me today as the emotions of flesh are here to steal, kill, and destroy, But I came died and rose from the dead to give you life seperating flesh emotions from the new you, where those firey darts cannot harm you the believer any longer. Keep on Joel, trusting the living God to set not only you free but those that are seeking the same
ReplyDeleteHoward
Joel, Howard and Mike (I know this is a few months past your discussion but I have been pondering these things for some time too. This article is called "Universal Reconciliation is True, but Universal Salvation is False" is so packed with scripture to prove this point. Howard, it seems to be what you are saying in that the whole world was forgiven, but the life doesn't come through Christ's death, but through his Resurrection. Reconciliation has happened to the whole world (God is not angry anymore) the veil has been torn in two, there is no sin barrier between mankind and God anymore. But only those who believe in Christ (or trust in Him, recieve Him-however you want to put it) then recieve salvation (resurrection- new life- born-again). If Christ had died and didn't rise to new life, we would all be dead. It is in his Resurrection that we receive Eternal life. http://www.biblelife.org/sins.htm
ReplyDeleteHi Cory-Lynn,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link to the article. As it's somewhat of a long article, I only took time to skim it over and from what I get out of it, I tend to agree with the overall gist of it. Christ's sacrifice provided for the forgiveness of the sins of all of mankind, and as the article says, forgiveness of sins is not the same as salvation. I'm not sure if the article mentions this, but I'll just add that the forgiveness of sins was simply the "prerequisite" to what was really needed in the long run. The real problem is that we were dead (to God) and needed life. The forgiveness of sins paved the way for us to believe and to be joined together with Christ in His resurrection, and therefore made alive together with Him, but being forgiven is indeed not the same as being made alive together with Christ.
Joel, that is exactly what I believe. So for example, my dad and sisters do not believe in Christ but I believe that their sins have been taken away along with everyone else in the entire world. (if sin wasn't out of the picture no-one would have access to God) But even though they are forgiven, they are not born-again. At this point none of them would go to heaven if they died right now. Only when they trust in Jesus as their Savior do they recieve His life (new-spirit). I believe that when people die now not having trusted in Christ, don't go to hell for their sins because Christ has taken away the sins of the world. They go because no-one who is not born-again can enter the kingdom of God. They died with Christ 2000 years ago but not recieveing Him (his life) cannot possibly enter heaven. Reconciliation of the world = God not angry anymore because Christ took away the sins of the World. Exactly what you said "being forgiven does not mean someone is saved" The whole world is walking around "forgiven" but that doesn't mean they are going to heaven. The world couldn't have been reconciled to God had the "sin debt" hadn't been taken out of the way. As you said, it was the prerequisite to what is needed in the long run. Before Adam sinned and passed down the sin nature to all of mankind, He was spiritually alive to God. So what has been bugging me the most is that so many people (in my opinion) are sharing the wrong gospel. They tell people that Jesus died for their sins on the cross, and that they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior that their sins will be forgiven. This is what one other guy put it as the "potential" gospel. That you are only forgiven when you believe/recieve. Shouldn't we be telling people the real gospel? That God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself,not counting mens sins against them. They don't recieve forgiveness when they believe, they recieve His life. But instead people are told a gospel that they have to repent of their sins in order to be able to come to Christ. Sorry for the long post, I am not good at writing my thought down, but I feel like things become clearer as I do. The article I sent you was all about the resurrection. Had Christ not been raised, we would all still be dead in our sin nature. Universal reconciliation of the world back to God Himself is a historic reality, but salvation comes through His life.
Delete